Once a week when I was a teenager, my friends and I would drive to a gay nightclub downtown. Thursday nights were alcohol-free and 16 was the age of entry. Since there were only a handful of openly gay students at each of our high schools, if even that, the only way we knew to connect with other young gay people was over the Internet and in that club.
Inside was a sea of dancing skinny, hairless teenage boys from the suburbs who looked even younger than they really were, ringed by a flock of straight girls we brought with us, who pole-danced against our thighs. The lesbians gathered in their own clusters to the side. You could hear the bassy music from outside on the patio and cigarette smoke choked the air just before indoor smoking bans hit major cities. Some of the boys would take their shirts off and sag their pants low enough that you could tell their pubes were shaved. The rest of us would sit at the tables smoking, or in my case, take occasional drags from friends’ cigarettes and talk about people who passed by.
Almost everyone in the club was under the age of 20, but there were always a couple of guys aged 27 or so in the mix, and occasionally we’d see a socially-awkward man in his 30s or 40s gawking at the young kids as if to memorize every face. We thought those guys were creepy, and talked shit about them as we talked shit about the teenage boys who were their friends.
That was the totality of our experience with older gay men: we knew only those who seemed starkly out of place, who tried too hard to make friends exclusively with underage people, who made every statement into a sexual innuendo and who, we all believed, had an ulterior motive of sleeping with us. I think many of us were afraid to be single, even in high school or college, because we worried it could lead to us someday becoming those lonely-looking older men.
We learned from peers our age about what gay life had in store. Many of us were still half in the closet to our relatives or at school. Information trickled down slow from guys just barely older than we were, and we scooped up new terms for our vocabulary before even fully understanding what they meant. We were eager for that sense of culture, even as we avoided its broader context in the generations that invented it.
I see a stark disconnect between the generations among gay men. Gay culture is fixated on youth and physical fitness, idealizing people under 30, while young guys are so prejudiced by their few bad encounters with older men that every time someone 10 or more years older talks to them they think of him as a “creepy old guy” looking for sex. My peers are often taken aback by the very idea of sex after the age of 50, and you’ll hear things like “I hope I die when I’m 45, I don’t want to get old.”
I’m sure those guys will be singing a different tune about their lifespans when they’re 44. Meanwhile we suffer a tragic loss of opportunity by writing off our predecessors. Straight young people learn about heterosexual relationships from their parents, from the media and from the whole world that lays out expectations and is geared toward helping straight people keep their marriages together. Same-sex relationships, which are undoubtedly more complicated with all their social and political pressures, not to mention the smaller playing field, lack good models. Each generation wades into dark water completely without a lighthouse – not because there isn’t anyone there to support us, but because we’re all afraid of anyone who could.
That’s not to say I haven’t worked with a few older gay men, and I have friends who’ve been in shockingly disparate cross-generational relationships (that seem never to last longer than a couple years). But I rarely come across the kind of guy who’s been with his partner 15 years and made it work. There’s a lot we could learn from the failings or successes of another generation, and these are the kinds of things I’d want to know: do open relationships work? If you’re looking to settle down, at what age do most gay men finally achieve that? What is it like raising children as a same-sex couple; do your kids think it’s weird having two dads? Does anyone invite a third parent into the mix as a mother figure? How hard is it to stay in love with one person for a long time? If you choose to stay single or uncommitted instead, how do you achieve belonging or meaning? How do you find that meaning when your connection with a younger generation – something that gives many people a sense of context and perpetuity – is cut off by their prejudice, or by your own avoidance from fear of being thought of as a pedophile?
I’ve noticed a number of older gay folks have a strong need to connect to a younger generation, wanting to help with career ambitions or dispense life advice or talk about social issues and tell you everything about what it was like to be gay in the 1980s. They’re so eager for it they’ll give you information even when it’s unsolicited. I can’t imagine that kind of drive not occurring among human beings – who are built to nurture – who are denied the opportunity to have children or family life. But I don’t see the world, or the gay community or gay media, giving older folks much opportunity to connect and lend a hand to younger peers.
And while I may not be old enough to see things in context, I’ve also noticed changes in the way the younger generation navigates being queer, putting an added rift between us. Thirty years ago, gay couples were not as accepted into many liberal towns and churches; there was a much more pervasive sense of deviance you felt even as the most mild-mannered gay person. As a result, “gay humor” has a lot to do with sexual shock value. Gay literature is melancholy and almost never ends well. I think my generation doesn’t deal with such stark boundaries; we talk and live much the way our heterosexual friends, siblings and roommates live. We’ve gone back to being the only gay guy at the party, only this time we’re out of the closet and comfortable with that. I don’t know if our differences were caused by the older generation being ripped apart by AIDS, or if its just the result of different political eras.
I hope we’re approaching a time when that gap can be addressed and bridged. But I do know that there’s a near-universal sense among my peers that dating is overwhelming and frustrating, and that the angsty-teenagerhood extends, for gay men, into the mid twenties or longer because we don’t know what it looks like to emerge from that place. We could all use the help of a conversation that hasn’t really taken place.
Matt, your article hit me where I live.. I could have that conversation; answering those questions, but it would be about growing up gay in the 70’s, I only wish it had been the 80’s! Oddly enough, I was the good looking 17 year old that only wanted to be with the 40 & 50 year olds…I never trusted my peers…I guess I yearned for wisdom..we’ll, truth be told, they were better at sex than the pimply faced teens & tweens…ah, the good times. now i’d love to find a peer, unfortunately 20-30 year olds are the only types interested in me..they never last though..the last one was 19 when I was 35, we were together 13 years..whatever happened to monogamy and till death do us part…shit, do I expect too much? Or, am I just an old fucker who refuses to keep up?
Great article Matt..& btw, how old are you?
ceg
thanks for a great article
wow – so true – thought provoking and well just plain true…
Iam in my 40s…and I find that now Iam there – the guys I wanted to date in my 20s and 30s – which were guys my age – other 20 -30 year olds were not interested in dating me – but now that Iam in my 40s that are now comming onto me….like you cant believe….
becuase were gay our families- our GAY families are created and recreated…and
have to take on many people and descriptions over time…
we learn from them all….
it would be nice to integrate….guys older than me and guys younger than ,me…as well…
I always tell the younger guys – “Your walking down a road that was paved with pain and tears and blood…”
no matter what you think of older guys – hot ot not – you should treat us with respect…we carried the torch – the banner and all the protests before you…so you could walk into a mall – see Gay magazines and buy gay dvd films or kiss your boyfriend in the mall without a lynch mob showing up…
respect
and to the older guys I say – let it go – the weight is off our backs now
- pass the torch…
and see what the next generation does…
its there turn…
if they ask for help or advice on anything – just like a family member would…
then extend it with grace and love…
I was a twenty-year-old gay man who had NO interest in guys my own age. I wanted to learn how to be successful at the gay relationship thing, and I was unimpressed by the twinks around me. I got a 42-year-old boyfriend who took me to social parties where I was the youngest guy there by forty years, not counting him. I met gay couples who had been together 39, 42, 48 and 52 years! It blew my mind. These men were intensely interested in mentoring me… A young man who asked meaningful questions. None of them pushed me for sex – they loved to be my affectionate uncles. I got into the leathermen’s play-party circuit on the West Coast in the mid 1970’s, and nearly all of the men I chose for sex were in the 40-65 age range. They were INCREDIBLE sexual athletes, and they taught me sexual wisdom that has served me very well for the last 35 years. They’re all dead now, and current generations are much poorer as a result. So many mentors, leaders and role-models, gone. Nowadays, I’m 53, fat, gray and balding, and young guys chase after me constantly. I’ve been with my husband almost 19 years, deliriously in love. The young guys offer sex, but frankly, I don’t choose that. I’m much more interested in being a kind, affectionate honest role-model. If you r-e-a-l-l-y want to understand male-male relationships as they really are, get a used copy of the out-of-print classic book “The Male Couple” by Mattison and Macwhirter. You cans find it used on Amazon. It’s the only clinical study of long-term male relationships. ZERO percent of the couples who had been together ten years and over were sexually monogamous. Male couple ARE different, and when we try to act like straights, we break up.
“ZERO percent of the couples who had been together ten years and over were sexually monogamous.”
Well shit, dude, what percent of heterosexual couples are monogamous for that matter?
Did any of these couples you were talking to have kids? How does it change things when you have children,is it easier to be monogamous then?
I’ve stopped organising dresscode sex and dance parties that I had been doing for over 10 years at our local gay community center here in Delft NL (a small university town)
Not that the parties were not working or no commercial success, but finding guys to assist running them became harder over the years untill . . .
well, recently the new generation seems to have become so sexually uptight and age hypocritical that the team was just getting to small.
For a long time I’ve tried to resist this, but recently my reasoning is: If that’s what they (don’t) want, so be it. We moved the parties to Amsterdam, where there is more furtile ground then ever, but:
The dangerously oppressive climate, now spreading in our local gay community, preaches one kind of homosexuality as the acceptable norm. Everybody with some experience in the gay community and education knows this will not work: it is highly dangerous and contra-productive and only carries the risk of kids looking elsewhere and finding places much less oppressive, often liberating initially, but mostly lonely and cold further on. A warm, truly tolerant playful climate, celebrating diversity, close to home is much preferable, but now hardly available: instead of bringing young homosexuals into a safe, dynamic, multicultural and accommodating environment young ghay ‘authorities’ in Delft once again feel the need to pass judgement and try to organise a culture with the oppression tool, more fitting in the Bush era then in the ‘hopeful’ future.
This was an extremely interesting article to read – and I enjoyed the comments too. As a 22 year old living in a medium sized Canadian city, I know full well the yearning for culture and mentorship that comes with youth and a very small exposure to the gay community. I feel very fortunate to have made friends with a very liberal and open-minded group of homo and heterosexuals, most of whom are over 30. Through our friendships and shared experiences I have learned a great deal about what it means to be not just a grown-up homo, but a good partner, and a solid member of my larger community as well. I recognize that this is not always the case though – several men in my age group that I have dated seem (A) Creeped out by anyone over the age of 28, and (B) Painfully stuck at the age of 19. I’m not saying you have to drink wine and play pictionary on your Saturday nights. But I do think it is important to connect and have fun with your friends and family in a more meaningful way than getting wasted at a club, dancing your tits off, and then going home with someone you don’t really know. Sure, it can be a blast, but I doubt it fosters a love and understanding of your fellow man, let alone for yourself. My point in all of this is that YES – there is a generational divide out there; but NO – this isn’t permanent. Getting involved in your community (not just the gay one) will help bridge this socially awkward gap. Also – I have seen both open and monogamous long-term, committed relationships work. and I have no idea about the parenting thing; but I suspect a present “aunty” might be a good influence on a growing child. Oh PS: my boyfriend is 42, and Never a slouch in the sack.
The social stigma on age was a foreign concept to me growing up in the closet down south. In high school, I secretly wanted the other boys on the soccer team, and I lusted for my coach in equal measure. Hot was hot, and I liked what I liked. Granted my introduction into gay culture was very late into the season, but I’ve never understood this particular brand of ostracism towards the older gents. Sure, I’ve felt the leers on my infrequent trips to Boys’ Town, but maybe I’m just a vain creature because I’ve always taken it as flattery. Hell, I love the wanton attention from women.
I’m very close with an older, gay man who just turned fifty. He’s alone, had a few relationships under his belt, and is the only homosexual I’ve met that I could relate to. I’ve learned a lot from him, and I will continue to, I consider our connection something I’m going to carry with me from 23 onward.
I’m not too concerned whether or not I end up in a lasting relationship in the future. Sure, it’d be nice, but my expectations of love are fairly high (some may say, irrationally, idealistically so). And we all die alone in the end. I don’t expect to meet someone I can spend my entire life with, I welcome life to prove me wrong. But at the same token, there is a certain power in knowing that I’m unattached and free to go wherever I choose. Gay culture? I’ll redefine it for myself with the lessons I carry.
Sorry for the pedagogic bent, I’m going to step away from the podium now.
I’m a 20 yr old gay man (boy in some eyes), and I currently dating a man of 30 yrs of age. Many of my friends were shocked (some horrified) by the idea of dating some one 10 yrs older than them. I found it to be a bit of a shock myself at first. I remember my high school years, talking with my friends about how 30 yr old men were “way too old.” After sustaining a two year relationship with a guy of my age, I found that I was attracted to the maturity of older men, however those thoughts were kept quiet as it’s like a taboo amongst young gay men. A friend of mine viewed younger guys dating older men as, “an escape from their sad childhood with no strong, masculine figure…it’s just a way to fill a hole that daddy created when he shunned his gay son.” I challenged his views on such relationships, I’ve found more stability, comfort, and compassion than I have ever received from a guy near my age. So the stigma society has created can kick rocks for all I care, love can not be bound by a number.
Beautiful post & comments–enjoy the wine of youth—It all goes by so quickly…
As an older woman with somewhat sizable breasts, I can say that young men are constantly attracted to my bosom, and I enjoy their affections while always remembering the threat of contagion. I think if there is one thing that young male lovers have to offer their sexual mentors, it is disease.
When I was 22 I thought that 30yo would be the highest I could consider. Now I’m 26 and I have a crush on a couple of 43yo & 50yo. They are much hotter than any porn I’ve seen. I get along with the 30-60+ range of gay men because I know my gay history and want to learn how to have the 25+ years of relationship. I’m usually attracted to a man by his personal traits that can’t be bought at the gym or in a bottle. Sadly though, I don’t know where to find single men in the 35-50 range that want to give a 26yo a chance. I can fix your car, tie a windsor knot, win the pub quiz and I’m always in the mood. Where the daddy bears at?
(Houston, Tx)
Great article that touched a lot of soft spots for me.
My partner and I are in our 30s and have been together for almost 10 years, and it’s been a rocky learning curve. He likes older guys, and I’m mentally (if not chronologically) older in a lot of ways. I had/have a desire to nurture a younger – he’s 4 years younger than me.
In our experience, it’s possible to be together for 10 years, but it’s like any other (read:hetero) relationship: it takes a lot of work, and constant nurturing, maintenance, growth, patience, and love. We lost our way for awhile and got into some very problematic areas. We’re rekindling our emotional and physical affection for each other, and rebuilding our relationship and trust. Could we have said “f*** it” and gone our separate ways? Sure, but we’d made enough of an investment together that it made more sense to try to work things out and fix what was broken … and we loved each other too much to keep posturing and playing games. I don’t think a hetero relationship would be any different that way.
I’m not sure that I agree that male-male relationships are really “different.” I think same-sex relationships are often different when they don’t include ties that bind like kids, shared property, etc. But in my experience, gay and hetero males have one predictable factor in common: our hardwired orientations aside, we’re all pigs. I work with lots of straight guys, and I see the same range of sexual chastity to piggishness with them. One of my mentors is a great guy in his early 60s. Been very happily married for 30+ years. He freely admits he plays around, and we think more than he’ll own up to. Other coworkers and friends have lots of side affairs, especially in the workplace. My partner and I are almost unique in not fishing in the company pool – although we’ve had infidelity issues carefully kept off-camera – and we’re the gay guys!!! Men, unfortunately, are genetically hardwired to spread their seed across the accessible landscape. I think gay open relationships “work” to the same extent their straight counterparts do.
I also work with a lot of other gay people, and feel that nurturing/mentoring need. As you describe, although our workplace is plenty gay, it’s generationally stratified. If I have the opportunity to pass along what I’ve learned in life, I will, but it hasn’t happened yet. It’s a shame, because there are few enough gay people in our world that we’ve got a lot to teach (and learn from) each other.
When I was 18 I thought I liked older men. Then I realised I just liked men who weren’t idiots – as most of my peers were.
ah well, I think the generations are seperated at least in part because they act very differently. The older gay men are older men. As a twenty-two year old, I’m really not sure what I’m going to have in common with a fifty year old, for instance. Others are into that type of man, and good for them. But still, the age difference of more than twenty years is going be a barrier.
Also, the younger queers don’t hang out in the same places- At least in Toronto, the young queer presence does not hang out in the traditional queer village, but in the newer trendy areas. This is partly because people with our sexual preference are generally accepted in mainstream society, partly because the gay village is horrendously expensive.
Anyway. It’s nice that you want to mentor the fledglings, and I’m sure an older man would have much to teach a person. But personally, I’ve learned how to be a happy and open queer with the help from my friends- both straight and gay, all of them around my age. I think each generation of queers figures it out themselves, and that’s fitting- not every generation of gays are the same.
Best article I’ve read in quite some time. So many layers blended together so well. As everybody here I have very personal stories on several topics mentioned: from having my first sexual experience with a guy 16 years older, to having a great, non-monogamous 6 year relationship. Great comments, too. I’m so with the guy writing about prudish hypocrisy we live in. It’s all about posing nowadays. Fight back!
Its kind of a viscous circle: young guys writing off the older guys – they’re not “hot,” or “they are creepy.” In turn, the older guys, tired of this cold approach, frankly, don’t bother to help the younger ones.
Yours truly turned 29 a few months ago, further cementing my liminal status in the world of gay men. Too old for the twentysomethings, too young for the older guys. I tire of the “young” bars where there’s nothing to do but dance and gawk–it’s “Logan’s Run” with a better soundtrack. And the older set around here does nothing but stand around bitching about their health complaints–just as well as they’ve all been partnered for years.
My love life is plagued by the same pattern as my life in general. I make a pathetic attempt to fit into the subgroup du jour, am cruelly rebuffed, and, after realizing the very principles on which the group is based are empty and hypocritical, reject the whole package. But then again, I happen to enjoy my “lone wolf” status, so 90% of the time this arrangement suits me just fine.
I was really taken with this article. It touched every thought contained in my brain about this topic. It was so well-written I was sure the author was 40+ years old. Amazing job. Let’s not forget the internet has much to do with the age gap growing between gays. When you can have sex delivered to the door faster than pizza, the gays don’t need their bars anymore, hence you end up with fewer bars filled with drunk revelers out and less appealing for those who simply wish to go to bars and chat someone up without the deafening music to scream over.
The article was nice to read, but it skirts with one topic without addressing it directly and it seems that topic is being addressed a lot in the comments section.
I interpreted the article as an argument for the importance of bridging the generation gap with our gay fore-uncles. However, there’s quite a difference between cementing that bond and actually involving ourselves in crossgenerational romantic and sexual relationships, as a lot of the comments seem to imply.
I’m 21 years old and I feel very lucky about having discovered one of my favorite teachers at college, who is 10 years my senior, is also gay. I consider him a very good friend and mentor, and it sure has been a great deal of help in my life to be able to come to him with questions about my love life and gay society in general, that I can’t ask my parents or friends. So yes, having contact with older gays makes my life palpably better.
But we’re just that, good friends. When I’m at a disco with people my age and I see the lone old ephebophile, or a guy in his 30s tries to hit on me on an online dating site, I’m still very much creeped out. As much as a girl of 21 would be if a guy of 37 hit on her. There’s a boundary that just doesn’t need to be crossed. Getting involved with the older generation isn’t synonymous with having sex disregarding age. I’m attracted to guys my age and I hope it stays that way and I don’t end up hunting for young boys. Despite sometimes indulging in the thought I may be mature for my age, I prefer not to have the arrogance to not see myself as a product of the time I grew up with. My interests, my cultural reference landmarks, my social status and my occupation are those of a young man of 21, and I’m just not going to have enough in common with an older guy to be interested in a relationship.
There’s something a bit askew with suggesting we, the younger generation, should look up to the older one as a source for counsel, like surrogate parents, and then also commending the wonders of sleeping with those “parents”. It’s not something the author did, but it certainly was left hanging in the air and picked up in the discussion. It would be nice to see a similar article exploring the true motivation behind cross-generational relationships.
I find Diego’s comment to be mainly true, but he’s forgetting something else about the internet. With social networking sites like myspace or Gaywatch, I’ve gotten to know and actually BEFRIEND some older men whom I would assume to be creepy old guys if I were at a bar or club. The internet is not JUST for sex…
The thing I feel makes the difference is the perceived sexual threat. “Is this old guy coming over to talk to me because he wants to fuck me? Or is he here to offer sage advice about life and maybe make a friend?”
If the case is the former, I immediately put up my defense mode just because of the notion of “The Creepy Old Guy.”
Great articul, When older (30″s, 40<s or 50″s) aske me for sex or just talk I do, I like to have sex with older men, because soner or later ZI will be there begen for some company and sex, must will be there and live it.
Rudy
Thought provoking. I’m 66, and creepy I hope I’m not. Like all in the older age range, it’s incumbent on us to live in the now, rather than always looking back.
Sure we had it rough….we were variously : criminals, sick, objects of pity, objects of ridicule, destroyers of society , isolated etc, but every generation has issues to deal with. We don’t need to set ourselves up to be uniquely wise, if we’re open in mind, younger guys might decide we’re not so creepy after all.