A query to God-loving ‘Merica:
If all weather-based, terrorist-wrought, or naturally-occurring disasters are sin-related, then what is the symbolic significance of lightning — I mean, that’s pretty direct — striking the hideous Jesus statue located on the grounds of the palatial Solid Rock Church in Monroe, Ohio and engulfing it in holy fire Wicker Man-style? We know earthquakes are caused by scantily-clad women and volcanoes erupt because of health care reform, but whose transgressions are to blame for Touchdown Jesus getting lit up like an unrepentant, unmarried, buoyant witch with socialized health care? Did some sort of hubris or overweeeeeeeening pride on the part of someone invite this event? Does God hate tacky religious kitsch? Could it really be that occurrences like this is are just frighteningly random and not the result of a sky giant punishing those it deems wrong in Clash of The Titans “Release The Kraken!” fashion? Should you perhaps take a step back and ruminate whether the real arrogance is to personify the universe as an extension of your own will that rains down terror and suffering on those you brand deserving of it?
Barring that, I suppose you could just blame Zeus, Thor, or that prick Yaluk. Or maybe those damn eco-terrorists are at it again.
© 2010, An Unpaid Intern. All rights reserved. Nightcharm.com
During filming of The Passion of the Christ the star portraying Jesus, James Caviezel was struck by lightning and suffered minor injuries.
Ha! It is to laugh.
Video of the burning, and remaining steel carcass… enjoy
(link)
I guess its Torchdown Jesus now.
touch down Jesus’s real thoughts – “DADDY! Get me outta here! PLeeeaaasseee!”
*ZOT!* *FWOOM* *sigh of relief*
“Thank you Daddy.”
I understand that you’re an atheist but do you have to be a dick about it?
Pointing out religious nonsense ≠Being a dick
Frankly considering the height of the structure (six stories) it was bound to be hit by a lightning bolt eventually. It would be sheer hubris to think it would not considering the materials used in the building of said structure were prone towards being able to carry an electric current rather than repel one.
Besides, all bad architecture should be swept away as a number of my cultural elitist friends would say and not leave a visual blight upon the planet due to their very horrific presence. The least that the builders could have done whilst erecting a stainless steel skeleton of “Touch Down Jesus” would have been to use an insulating material that wasn’t electrically conducive nor burst into flame once hit by lightning. Seriously, for the amount that they originally paid for the structure 200,000+ could they not have simply used molded concrete with frosted glass panels combined with steel in order to make it both a true piece of art both inside and out?
u mean they aren’t blaming obama?
The video is awesome! Tracy Marune really did his homework in terms of imitating the oratorial style of evangelical preachers. It seems like every 2 words he was popping off another gem. He had me laughing my ass off.
via Eschaton:
“Farewell Big Butter Jesus, and let us consider that the gigantic dirty bookstore directly across it on I-75 was not smote in the least.”
(link)
Mocking the faith of a couple billion people just because of a lightning strike for no reason other than your personal issues is what I call being a dick. Yes, the statue was tacky and yes it getting struck by lighting was ironic and a bit funny but that statue actually meant something to a lot of people, some good and undoubtedly some bad.
I happen to know some of those good people, and they have marched right beside me in pride parades without shame or malice.
Saying that people’s beliefs are arrogant because they interpret the universe in a different manner than you (as if you’re interpretation is any more accurate) is being a dick.
Its all well in good if your an atheist, your beliefs are your beliefs and I wouldn’t dream of mocking you because we have different views, but when you start attacking a group of people you “think” you know, that’s when you start becoming as bad as evangelicals who spout those divisive and homophobic statements.
“Mocking the faith of a couple billion people just because of a lightning strike for no reason other than your personal issues is what I call being a dick.”
The faith of a couple of a billion people has been responsible for gay people being outlawed, imprisoned, and slaughtered. Countless preachers have used natural disasters as proof of God’s wrath. It’s simply applying the same ridiculous logic.
“Saying that people’s beliefs are arrogant because they interpret the universe in a different manner than you (as if you’re interpretation is any more accurate) is being a dick. ”
The interpretations that don’t involve sky wizards or Jewish zombies or rib-women are indisputably more accurate. Why does our culture continue to entertain the notion that tribal stories about a magical, invisible Hebrew deity might somehow be true?
Countless people have been slaughtered for plenty of other reasons: money, land, egos, and a whole bunch of other shit that winds down to being the result of the fragile human condition. Ignoring the fact that the end of the day, humans are flawed by their very nature and simply blaming it all on religion is lazy.
If you really are that angry and lazy to think that religious people aren’t capable of adapting their beliefs to scientific facts than you don’t really have to right to comment on them. Religion and how its practiced changes just like everything else. Just because the crazies in the bunch get the most attention doesn’t mean that they represent all of us.
It has changed from an explanation to how the world has come to be to a guide on how to live ones life with purpose and meaning. People choose the path that they believe fits them best. Those tribal stories you speak of are more than just attempts to explain a world that we don’t fully comprehend, they are about important things like trust, redemption, love and justice and a whole bevy of legitimately important values. Of course the bible has some fucked up sections, nothing is perfect, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t relevant and meaningful lessons in there, no matter what your religious beliefs.
Just because you have a gripe with Abrahamic religions doesn’t mean that your opinions of them get to go unanswered.
The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, what any of us truly know about the universe amounts to very little. And to assume that all people of faith follow the bible literally to a T simply means that you’re being a dick. Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with being an atheist, and there’s nothing wrong with being religious. It’s when you apply you’re own grievances and ignorance to an entire group of people that you (clearly) know very little about that you start overstepping your bounds and end up a douchebag. You’re behaving no better than Pat Robinson, you just have a smaller platform to spread your intolerance.
So why is it exactly that “good” people are tested/have misfortunes while bad people get comeuppances? The Medieval Church fabricated the notion that natural disasters are the result of a wayward populace, and modern-day religious people have drummed it out again. Thus, New York had it coming, and so did New Orleans and Haiti (these are instances where actual people were harmed, which only seemed to amplify the smugness of those with direct pipelines to God). How come we don’t hear the same thing when twisters hit the Midwest, floods engulf the South, and species-jumping flu epidemics take root in Red States? Why does it never work both ways?
I think people like me are looking at exactly where “God Is Good!” wrapped up in “America Can-Do!” has really taken us — how much damage it’s done. You see, to love God, you have to love America, and to love America means you have to champion its every policy because its every action is ordained by God. Yet that doesn’t really translate.
We can roll into countries with tanks, but we can’t really turn them into picket-fence lined colonies. We can drill deeper oil wells (and nobody pushed harder for it than the Tea Party) but we can’t stop them when they rupture. The invisible hand of the Free Market (read: God) misled and robbed people blind. Our lovely megachurch leaders have advocated fucking genocide in vulnerable developing nations. Objectively, America under God’s aegis is not all-powerful, certainly not all-knowing, and no, not absolved of wrongdoing.
A few people marched with you in parades, but does that really outweigh all of that malevolence? Are you really seeing what you’re so stridently defending?
Yeah it may sound dickish, but I’m feeling dickish after the last decade of unmitigated superstitious bullshit masquerading as policy. We worry about the effects of gays marrying, or illegal immigrants getting amnesty, and women being charge of their own vaginas, but to be honest, I’m questioning whether people who believe in talking snakes and magical gardens should occupy positions of authority wherein their decisions have far-reaching real world effects. Maybe if you have moral objections to treating certain people, perhaps you’re not cut out to be a physician. If you’re the type of person who thinks a God guides your hand, or that demons cause war, or posits people will magically vanish out their clothes at the End of Days, I don’t think you should have your finger on any button. Maybe your “personal relationship” with God doesn’t make you a viable candidate for office.
The thing is, Pride doesn’t goeth before the Fall. They topple hand in hand, and they end up taking us non-believers who want no part of the God Delusion with them.
Hence dickishness.
Shawn, with all do respect, you’re ignoring what my main grievance is. All your doing is lumping in twisted evangelical fear masqarading as religion and applying it to the concept of religion, (specifically Abrahamic religion) as a whole.
I know exactly what I’m defending, I know what I’m defending in the fact that I’m aware of its serious flaws as well as its incredible positives. Bye no means am I stating that religion is perfect, nothing is. What I’m saying is that religion has changed countless lives for the better. It’s given homeless people shelter and sick people comfort. Its created understanding of different people and different viewpoints of life. Its has started conversations that have changed lives for the better. Its the source of most of the greatest artistic periods in history around the world, without which many of the articles on your site wouldn’t exist.
At the end of the day All your doing is reciting the same atheist talking points so you can talk without really saying anything. You’re only pointing out the negatives without giving due respect or even acknowledgment to the positives.
Just because the positive aspects don’t always reveal themselves in the most dramatic ways doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They start with small connections and slowly travel through society without due credit.
You’re saying that religion is the reason why we seek to obtain more then we need, why we attack those for resources that we seek to profit from. That’s is complete and total bullshit. Greed and religion are two completely separate entities. Greed is something that all religions oppose, so I don’t see where your argument is coming from.
Do people manipulate religion to further their own goals? Of course, but how is that the fault of religion itself? If it’s not religion, then it would be something else. Instead of blaming religion, why not call out these people for their ulterior motives? Greed, money, and power all the things that religions truly speak against instead of going after the easy target.
You are of the incorrect belief that people of faith are also not people of logic. Like I said earlier, Christian lore is meant as a parable, a lesson within a story. Stories like Moses and the burning bush are meant to display the positive aspects of self control and faith. Adam and Eve is meant as a tale depicting the fragility of man. Its not a story meant to be taken seriously as historical fact. If you can’t see that then all your doing is stereotyping, which is something that the gay community is fighting so hard against. But then again the gay community has never been afraid of being hypocritical. But that’s another story.
Again, I totally understand being opposed to religion taking root in places where it doesn’t belong but ignoring religions ultimate place in the world is tantamount to talking out your ass with all do respect.
Like I said earlier, if you’re too angry or lazy to fully grasp what religion is ultimately meant to be then you aren’t really in the position to criticize it. I understand that you can only focus on the negative, it’s simply human nature, but then don’t talk about how religion is supposedly destroying the world when you fail to understand the positive. Religion is supposedly to cause of thousands of death, yet no one takes note of the amount of lives saved thanks to missionaries. Apparently the good will generated by people willingly donating their hard earned money (reaching into the billions mind you) so that people without could eat because of what they learned going to church doesn’t amount to anything. The countless soup kitchens and orphanages run by religious institutions don’t count for anything.
Yes, one man said that Haiti got hit because of a deal with the devil, well guess what? Thousands if not millions more said that was bullshit and did what they could to help people and needs and I’m pretty sure a solid (if not a majority) chunk of those people were people of faith and I’m also sure that a good portion of those people were atheist or agnostic. Acting as if religion is void of any substantial positive effects is underestimating something that has existed for thousands of years without incident.
There is nothing special about being an atheist just as there is nothing special about having faith. Just don’t think that you’re belief system (or lack-thereof) makes you a superior person to those who do because trust me, you’re not.
Good riddance to bad sculpture, that’s all I can say. And we mock the faith of a billion people because their belief system is idiotic, evil, and based on lies. And clinging to that faith doesn’t somehow make them good people, no matter how you whitewash it.
“Countless people have been slaughtered for plenty of other reasons: money, land, egos, and a whole bunch of other shit that winds down to being the result of the fragile human condition. Ignoring the fact that the end of the day, humans are flawed by their very nature and simply blaming it all on religion is lazy.”
That’s irrelevant. People may have been slaughtered for any number of reasons; it doesn’t make Christianity less reprehensible for its effects.
“If you really are that angry and lazy to think that religious people aren’t capable of adapting their beliefs to scientific facts than you don’t really have to right to comment on them. Religion and how its practiced changes just like everything else. Just because the crazies in the bunch get the most attention doesn’t mean that they represent all of us.”
Barring Nightcharm’s intercession, I have a right to comment on whatever I want, thank you. And if I want to observe that religion encourages the worst tendencies in humans – egotism and fanaticism – I will. And I’ll also point out that millions of Americans alone openly admit to treating science and reality with contempt.
“It has changed from an explanation to how the world has come to be to a guide on how to live ones life with purpose and meaning. People choose the path that they believe fits them best. Those tribal stories you speak of are more than just attempts to explain a world that we don’t fully comprehend, they are about important things like trust, redemption, love and justice and a whole bevy of legitimately important values. Of course the bible has some fucked up sections, nothing is perfect, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t relevant and meaningful lessons in there, no matter what your religious beliefs.”
“Relevant” and “meaningful” lessons are one thing. Believing that the source of those lessons is a magical being is ludicrous.
“Just because you have a gripe with Abrahamic religions doesn’t mean that your opinions of them get to go unanswered.”
Funny, I never said otherwise.
“The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, what any of us truly know about the universe amounts to very little. And to assume that all people of faith follow the bible literally to a T simply means that you’re being a dick.”
Many, many Americans might not follow the Bible to a T, but poll after poll indicates that millions of them believe every word to be literal truth. Nearly half of the country is ignorant and/or deranged enough to believe the world was created within the last 10,000 years. Religious lobbyists have spent tens of millions of dollars to attack evolutionary theory and impose creationism in the classroom.
And I automatically know a lot more than the religious. Because I’m cognizant of the fact that religious belief is nothing more than cultural inculcation that doesn’t have to adhere to any rules but its own.
“Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with being an atheist, and there’s nothing wrong with being religious. It’s when you apply you’re own grievances and ignorance to an entire group of people that you (clearly) know very little about that you start overstepping your bounds and end up a douchebag. You’re behaving no better than Pat Robinson, you just have a smaller platform to spread your intolerance.”
Unlike Pat Robertson, I’m not advocating criminalizing anything. I’m not responsible for kids killing themselves because they couldn’t live with themselves. I’m not a racist. I haven’t advocated assassinating a sovereign country’s leader. And I didn’t financially support Third World butchers.
Oh, and I don’t have millions of adherents, hanging on to my every word.
And as long as Christians continue to obstruct gay rights or push for a religious theocracy, I have legitimate grievances, which I’m more than happy to expound on.
“Do people manipulate religion to further their own goals? Of course, but how is that the fault of religion itself? If it’s not religion, then it would be something else. Instead of blaming religion, why not call out these people for their ulterior motives? Greed, money, and power all the things that religions truly speak against instead of going after the easy target.”
The thing is, people don’t manipulate religion that much. They’re merely selective of a religion that’s inherently violent. The Old Testament is about the unmitigated slaughter and enslavement of countless peoples who weren’t ‘Chosen’. That’s not an ulterior motive; their God told them to do that. It seems that God is all about greed, money, and power.
“You are of the incorrect belief that people of faith are also not people of logic.”
No, that’s completely correct. Faith isn’t logical. At all.
“Stories like Moses and the burning bush are meant to display the positive aspects of self control and faith. Adam and Eve is meant as a tale depicting the fragility of man. Its not a story meant to be taken seriously as historical fact. ”
And yet maybe billions treat it as such. There’s probably a half-dozen expeditions out right now, looking for Noah’s Ark. And they’re not talking about a metaphorical boat, they’re talking about a literal vessel that could hold two of every animal.
“Like I said earlier, if you’re too angry or lazy to fully grasp what religion is ultimately meant to be then you aren’t really in the position to criticize it. I understand that you can only focus on the negative, it’s simply human nature, but then don’t talk about how religion is supposedly destroying the world when you fail to understand the positive. ”
Yes, yes. You want to attribute all the positives to religion; all the negatives are people using or manipulating those passages explicitly advocating genocide, slavery, and oppression. As well as expounding on a loving God who sends a mystical assassin to kill newborn children.
“Just don’t think that you’re belief system (or lack-thereof) makes you a superior person to those who do because trust me, you’re not.”
So people who do good out of the goodness of their own heart, with no expectation of material or eternal reward are only as good as people who do good because they’re told to do so?
I happen to think people who want to improve the lot of their fellow man because it’s the right thing to do are superior to those who do it because the sky bully commands it so.
And yes, thanks to the missionaries. Especially the ones who preached abstinence and railed against condoms, while AIDs sent Africa back to the Stone Age for another 50 years.
Okay Zach, first off, I never said religion was the source of all good, I said is has undeniable positive effects on the world. And I never said religion was perfect. I’m saying that religion in and of itself is a neither all good or all bad. And I was balancing out your negative portrayal of religion because your blind to its negative. I can see both sides and knowing that, I’m still content with my faith because of the positives that I see in it and the hope that I can do my part to put and end to the negative aspects.
If you know anything about the Bible (which is clear that you don’t) you’ll know that one of the main aspect of the Bible is how the nature of God changes from being wrathful to being a source of love.Hence him changing from being vengeful (like the one you so inappropriately mentioned) to the God of love that most Christians know now. Zach, your ignoring the most prominent aspect of Christianity which is Christ, as in Jesus. Most Christian denominations are formatted around Jesus, which is what separates it from Judaism. I’m not going to go into detail because like you’ve blatantly ignored my other facts, you’ll probably do the same thing with this one. The most prominent aspect of Jesus’ teachings, or any religions teachings, is that love kindness is the end all and be all. Whether or not people adhere to those teachings is not the fault of the religion itself.
And about your comment on “goodness”. If people who aren’t of faith are the most logical (by your standards) than what do they determine is “good” outside of the benefit of their own survival. Most of the time, doing what is “good” involves doing what is blatantly unnecessary to one’s own survival. If it’s unnecessary, it’s illogical, therefor making the person who performed the act illogical. So in the end someone who does good for the sake of good is just as illogical as someone who does because someone “told” them so. At least according to you.
And where did these people learn what is “good” in the first place? If these people are the most logical, then they wouldn’t have a sense of what’s right and wrong. Morality would mean nothing to these people so they would never perform an act of good for good’s sake in the first place. So they themselves would have to have someone “tell” them what is right and wrong and assume that they would care enough to listen. And if they did, then they really be no better than the other group of people who did acts of good because someone “told” them. But at the end of the day what does it matter as long the acts of good happen in the first place, in spite of their origins.
Whether you like it or not, religion shapes ethics. Go any place in the world and the moral code there will have at least some basis in religion. I bet you any moral standards you have come from religion in some way, shape or form, which would actually make you hypocrites, but I won’t go that far.
Your arguments are weak because they simply fueled by your own prejudices. What’s even worse is that instead of trying to understand the people your ridiculing so you can at least fortify your arguments, you’re acting like middle school children, making fun of people you don’t know.
Yes, people used religion to justify slavery. But you know what, people used religion to justify its abolishment. The Civil Rights movement was made possible by a man of faith and gay man of faith and to be perfectly honest, I don’t know if a nihilist like yourselves would’ve gotten the job done.
And you know what, I never said your grievances weren’t legit, as a matter of fact, they are. But you know what, the people you are so dead set against are just that, people. They can be talked to and persuaded, they can learn from people they meet in life.I know this for a fact because I’ve done it. Have you ever though that instead of just stewing in your own hatred that you might just get out there and start a conversation and see where it goes? I doubt it. You seem too comfortable being angry.
I’ve met my fair share of atheists who don’t support gay rights because it doesn’t seem logical to endorse something that doesn’t naturally result in procreation. But after conversations with them I’ve been able to explain to them what it means to be gay and change their minds without much of a fight. Same goes for people of faith.
Its not that hard to do, you just have to hope that eventually you can change someones mind. But then again, hope requires faith doesn’t it?
You know what, I’m also sick of religous people! I have never met a Christian (besides my dad) that hasn’t told me that I’m going to hell for not believing in god. They can justify anything with a phrase from the bible, that’s bullshit, we are not in the fucking stone ages you know! I don’t know much about American politics but I agree religion has absolutely no place when it comes to leading a country! I also agree that probably 99.9% of the universe is inconcievable to humans and can’t be explained by science but I’m sure science will evolve to include an “unexplainable facts” section. There are countless colours and sounds and dimensions that exist around us but we can’t percieve them with our pair of ears and eyes. But seriously you ignorant bastards, we are litterally changing the very composition of our atmosphere, entire species of life are going into extinction and you are still stuck on the notion that 2 guys can’t love eachother and stick thier dicks in eachothers butts! So I have absolutely no patience for blind religion, they teach love but everyone involved feels condemned and judged and bound by some dusty old bullshit book. All we need is love… religion can take a hike, fuck off god, fuck off satan… Jesus, u can stay.
Jammy,
Do you notice how you only speak in vague generalities that are hard to confront because of their utter nebulousness? It’s a common dodge we see all the time here. You completely glossed over every single concrete example I offered up, never taking into account even a one in your Care Bear diatribe. All you put forth are “acts of good” and “people of faith.” “Hope requires faith” is a greeting card sentiment. These are Pollyanna Principles. Worse yet, you thrown down the caveat that without religion, there are no ethics. Lack of faith = nihilism. Really? Are theocracies — historical or contemporary — model societies?
When you put money in the basket in your local Catholic church, should you worry that it just might be used to try to hush up molestation claims? Are your friendly Evangelical missionaries going to the Congo to convince the locals to start ethnically cleansing the undesirables? Why does God need money at all? Can people be charitable and moral without needing the OK of a deity? Isn’t the Church just as out-of-step with science now as it was back in the days of Copernicus and Galileo?
When you can truly answer even one of these questions, you’ll have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, you’re just giving a sermon — plenty of bluster, but nary a speck of real content.
Yeah…you’re not actually paying attention are you? How is the Civil Rights Movement a generality? How the Renaissance a generality? How is the Abolitionist I’ve been talking about specific and significant moments in history where religion has played an important role since the beginning.
How is taking about Martin Luther King and Bayard Rustin speaking in generalities? What about Gandhi? Mother Theresa, Bishop Gene f*cking Robinson. Are these specific enough for you? Cause if they’re not, your just being stubborn. I’ve already proven you wrong as you’ve yet to answer my main question.
Where does your sense of morality come from? You don’t know. You seem to believe that a true person of logic only acts according to logic. That’s at least what Zach seems to believe and you seem to agree with him on everything so I can only assume this to be your position as well.
If that’s the case, a person who acts solely on logic is effectively morally neutral and effectively unable to make any moral judgments. So if a person acts only according to logic then they can’t act as a moral being. If a person isn’t moral then they sure as hell aren’t religious. And the rejection of both moral and religious belief is the definition of nihilism, so my invoking the term was pretty accurate.
And by the way, who ever said the money was for God in the first place? I’ve never heard sermon where the pastor says that. The money is usually used for upkeep of the church and charitable endevours. So yeah, the money doesn’t actually go to God, so no he doesn’t need it. Has the church handled the molestation fiasco poorly, of course it has, without question, and those involved should be held accountalble and punished severely without question, including the Pope. But the acts that those sick people, acts that ARE NOT condoned by the faithful, have done does not negate what the church in general has contributed to the world throughout.
And actually, the Church isn’t as out of step with science as everyone thinks it is. You did know that the Church apologized for what happend with Galileo right? And that Copernicus was a priest? Someone didn’t do their homework. Cause if you did, you’d know that it wasn’t the Catholic Church who has issues with science, its Evangelicals who do. As a matter of fact, one of the earliest employers of the Scientific Method, was a Catholic Priest, Roger Bacon, ever heard of him?
See? That’s what you get for stereotyping.
And you clearly don’t know what the Church stands for because the Catholic Church has no issues with evolution.It simply follows the concept of theistic evolution which creates no conflict, and have you ever read the Catechism of The Catholic Church:
“Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they ”
Or did you know about the Condemnations of 1210–1277. I bet you don’t. I suggest doing some research as opposed to simply being reactionary. It’ll serve you better in the end.
I must say, I’m kind of disappointed in you. Given the fact that the a lot of the articles on this site are really spectacular and insightful, I thought you would be more well read. Hmm, I guess I was wrong, at least about you anyway.
Mother Teresa, grouped in with the good guys? REALLY?
“If that’s the case, a person who acts solely on logic is effectively morally neutral and effectively unable to make any moral judgments. So if a person acts only according to logic then they can’t act as a moral being. If a person isn’t moral then they sure as hell aren’t religious. And the rejection of both moral and religious belief is the definition of nihilism, so my invoking the term was pretty accurate.”
Very reductive, as if the nonreligious are akin to serial killers or sociopaths? That’s a nice attempt at a slide by tying morality up with religion, but they certainly are sustainable when separated.
I could just as easily argue that morality is an evolutionary trait. The earliest men likely developed it and passed it on because they were social animals. They needed the security of the tribe, the prospect of a mate, the comfort of fraternity. Those who cohered survived and mated. Those who were unable to function in a group dynamic did not.
Today, our superego plays a role in cementing the moral social contract. Social and environmental pressures are the root, not the myths of an ancient desert tribe who didn’t understand why the sun went away at night. Neanderthals are posited to be the first early humans to have some sense of religion that manifested in burying the dead or perhaps conceiving an afterlife — I would argue the whole reason the notion of an afterlife exists is because man developed a fear of death and angst about his mortality — yet the first hominids were still able to maintain a social order without becoming the feckless Eloi from “The Time Machine.”
A child steals, and feels the shame of being apprehended, whether he’s religious or not. His anxiety of being set apart and punished keeps him from doing it again. Fear, guilt, and stigma are negative reinforcement in the same sense that a rat getting shocked by pressing against the bars of a cage learns not to do it again. Social conditioning keeps us from walking around without our clothes or beating a rival over the head because we want their mate. Restraint has been bred into us. That conditioning exists even without stone tablets of holy law. Many is the serial killer who turns to God in the klink, yet no amount of scripture and prayer is going to ameliorate whatever is flawed in his brain. Millennia ago, such people who caused ruptures in the social compact would have been driven out or killed by the tribe; today we’ve adapted to using prisons and state execution.
And I’m sure Galileo — I won’t mention the Knights Templar and all those attractive young women put to the fire — is grateful for the Church’s “Whoops! Our bad!” mea culpa four hundred years overdue. Sure the Dark Ages sucked, but we still have the castles on the hill full of morally pure priests, youth pastors, and pulpit pounders who always practice what they preach.
My friend is catholic and he was trying to convince me that Jesus rode on a dinosaur! Cause that’s what they are teaching him at church! And when I told this girl that I work with that I’m gay, she told me I was definately going to hell but she would pray for me (not to go to heaven- to go hetero!). My dad is privately Christian because he believed his girlfriend was possessed and he says he is not willing to take the risk of going to hell! When I was younger I went to a Christian school and my sister had a book on witchcraft in her bag the one day and one of her friends ratted her out and they started a fire on the field to burn the book! I actually have alot more stories of how dillusional religous people are… I’m not gonna get into it, I’d rather listen to my instincts on this one- it’s the graetest SCAM in history!
“Okay Zach, first off, I never said religion was the source of all good, I said is has undeniable positive effects on the world. And I never said religion was perfect. I’m saying that religion in and of itself is a neither all good or all bad.”
No, you’ve repeatedly exhorted that we dismiss all the negatives when discussing religion (because that’s all the original article alluded to) and only focus on the positives.
“And I was balancing out your negative portrayal of religion because your blind to its negative. I can see both sides and knowing that, I’m still content with my faith because of the positives that I see in it and the hope that I can do my part to put and end to the negative aspects.”
Good luck with that, because the Pope would sooner blow up the Vatican than welcome truly gays into the flock. Or stop its assault on women’s and reproductive rights, which have led to the deaths of millions.
“If you know anything about the Bible (which is clear that you don’t) you’ll know that one of the main aspect of the Bible is how the nature of God changes from being wrathful to being a source of love.Hence him changing from being vengeful (like the one you so inappropriately mentioned) to the God of love that most Christians know now.”
Like many, I was raised Catholic before realizing how nonsensical it all was and how unwelcome I had become. I wasn’t molested or traumatized by the Church, I simply realized how it was complete and utter bullshit. Four years of religious studies helped as well.
And why does God the genocidal lunatic get a free pass for all his crimes? Why is suddenly okay to worship a being who would send lackeys to slaughter whole civilizations?
You keep ranting about how ignorant we all are, but in my experience non-believers tend to be far more knowledgeable about religion than believers. Because we don’t have to grapple with doubt whenever we confront the utterly fictitious.
“Zach, your ignoring the most prominent aspect of Christianity which is Christ, as in Jesus. Most Christian denominations are formatted around Jesus, which is what separates it from Judaism. I’m not going to go into detail because like you’ve blatantly ignored my other facts, you’ll probably do the same thing with this one. The most prominent aspect of Jesus’ teachings, or any religions teachings, is that love kindness is the end all and be all. Whether or not people adhere to those teachings is not the fault of the religion itself.”
Why isn’t it the fault of religion? If worshiping Jesus leads men to mount endless crusades to slaughter and/or convert unbelievers, then there’s something inherently wrong with Christianity.
And the loving God of the New Testament was on the verge of ending it all, barring his son’s sacrifice. What kind of loving God does that? Or sends his child off to die horribly? He’s God. What happened to the omnipotence?
“And about your comment on “goodnessâ€. If people who aren’t of faith are the most logical (by your standards) than what do they determine is “good†outside of the benefit of their own survival. Most of the time, doing what is “good†involves doing what is blatantly unnecessary to one’s own survival. If it’s unnecessary, it’s illogical, therefor making the person who performed the act illogical. So in the end someone who does good for the sake of good is just as illogical as someone who does because someone “told†them so. At least according to you.”
That depends. There are any number of evolutionary theorists who would argue with you over the nature of altruism. In any case, trying to adhere to logic doesn’t mean you dispense with human emotions. It simply means you reserve and execute your affection for your fellow human beings, not out of a sense of loyalty or fear for some creator deity. I find humanity to be an extraordinary experiment – we don’t actually have a supernatural deity looking out for us, no safeguards to stop us from all going extinct. We just have ourselves, each other, and our wonderful brains to keep us going.
“And where did these people learn what is “good†in the first place? If these people are the most logical, then they wouldn’t have a sense of what’s right and wrong. Morality would mean nothing to these people so they would never perform an act of good for good’s sake in the first place.”
There’s a world of difference between one person telling another person what’s “good” and an unassailable deity doing it. In the first instance, we can debate it, negotiate it, come to some collective decision. The problem isn’t ‘someone else’ it’s a being that’s above reproach and never has to answer for itself.
Of course, any and all instances of God telling people how to behave derives from humans anyways, using the concept of God to make human laws universal ones.
“Whether you like it or not, religion shapes ethics. Go any place in the world and the moral code there will have at least some basis in religion. I bet you any moral standards you have come from religion in some way, shape or form, which would actually make you hypocrites, but I won’t go that far.”
Ethics shape religion. Not vice versa. Go to many places in the world and you’ll find moral codes that have zero basis in religion. Religion is simply a form that ethical behaviours might take to make them above reproach.
“Your arguments are weak because they simply fueled by your own prejudices. What’s even worse is that instead of trying to understand the people your ridiculing so you can at least fortify your arguments, you’re acting like middle school children, making fun of people you don’t know.”
Prejudices do not make an argument weak. Arguments live and die on their own merits. Yes, having the right person say them helps to convince others, but that neither makes them more or less sound.
Also, I don’t need to fortify my arguments, because I’m not saying anything new. I’m being blunt, but there are others who have been far more methodical and thorough in demolishing religion as the farce that it is.
“Yes, people used religion to justify slavery. But you know what, people used religion to justify its abolishment. The Civil Rights movement was made possible by a man of faith and gay man of faith and to be perfectly honest, I don’t know if a nihilist like yourselves would’ve gotten the job done.”
So yes, religion is responsible for any number of bad things, but then they do a pretty good job of cleaning up after themselves. Okay, how about we skip the religion entirely then? Then we won’t have so many messes to clean up.
And at last, we come to what’s really in the hateful little heart of every religious zealot: the non-believers aren’t really equal. They really don’t have a legitimate point of you. They’re just selfish creatures who have nothing to live for.
Honestly, you would have been more respectable if you had dispensed with the transparent respect and openly stated how much you despise non-believers.
“And you know what, I never said your grievances weren’t legit, as a matter of fact, they are. But you know what, the people you are so dead set against are just that, people. They can be talked to and persuaded, they can learn from people they meet in life.I know this for a fact because I’ve done it. Have you ever though that instead of just stewing in your own hatred that you might just get out there and start a conversation and see where it goes? I doubt it. You seem too comfortable being angry.”
I know its comforting to you to think that non-believers just stew in their own hatred, but it’s simply not true. In any case, you have repeatedly declared that our grievances aren’t justifiable, because they’re not actually what religion is, and that we’re not allowed to talk about all the negatives.
“I’ve met my fair share of atheists who don’t support gay rights because it doesn’t seem logical to endorse something that doesn’t naturally result in procreation.”
Bullshit. Bullshit. Maybe in East Asia, yes, or in Communist countries. But in modern Western society, I doubt you’re going to find even a substantial minority of non-believers who oppose gay rights. Poll after poll has demonstrated that non-believers are far and away the most accepting of gays. You’re talking out of your ass.
“Its not that hard to do, you just have to hope that eventually you can change someones mind. But then again, hope requires faith doesn’t it?”
No, it doesn’t, actually. Desiring possible outcomes doesn’t mean you slave your identity to a mythical being.
“And you clearly don’t know what the Church stands for because the Catholic Church has no issues with evolution.It simply follows the concept of theistic evolution which creates no conflict, and have you ever read the Catechism of The Catholic Church:”
The current Pope has indicated he has significant issues with evolution. As have other prominent religious leaders. You’re the one insisting that religion is so monolithic – well, many within, as well as many Catholics believe that the Earth was created in the past 10,000 years.
What do you expect though? This is an organization that kept Mass deliberately incomprehensible for centuries. Of course the average Catholic is going to be incredibly ignorant about its tenets.
“How is taking about Martin Luther King and Bayard Rustin speaking in generalities? What about Gandhi? Mother Theresa, Bishop Gene f*cking Robinson. Are these specific enough for you? Cause if they’re not, your just being stubborn. I’ve already proven you wrong as you’ve yet to answer my main question. ”
Mother Teresa let countless children die and suffer under poverty because she believed it was God’s wish. She accepted money from dictators. By most accurate accounts, as opposed to popular perceptions, she was a reprehensible human being.
“And by the way, who ever said the money was for God in the first place? I’ve never heard sermon where the pastor says that. The money is usually used for upkeep of the church and charitable endevours. So yeah, the money doesn’t actually go to God, so no he doesn’t need it. ”
So as opposed to money going to God, it goes towards God’s work. Yeah, big difference. And why does God’s work require palaces, mountains of gold and billions in property?
Deep in the heart of Texas:
A former San Antonio youth pastor sentenced to death for killing his pregnant girlfriend will get a new opportunity to avoid lethal injection after the state’s highest criminal court overturned his death sentence Wednesday. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals ordered Bexar County to conduct a new sentencing hearing for Adrian Estrada, who stabbed and strangled Stephanie Sanchez, 17, at her West Side home Dec. 12, 2005…. Estrada had been a youth pastor at El Sendero Assembly of God when he impregnated Sanchez several times [?], according to testimony from his trial. “I was just squeezing her neck like that,†he told detectives through tears in a videotaped interview. “She wasn’t… dying, and so I got the knife.â€
@ quip: Never trust a youth pastor! “She wasn’t… dying, and so I got the knife.†Yikes!
@ Zach: “So as opposed to money going to God, it goes towards God’s work. Yeah, big difference. And why does God’s work require palaces, mountains of gold and billions in property?”
I love the line from the U2 song “Bullet the Blue Sky”: “The God I believe isn’t short of cash, mister!” (‘Rattle and Hum’ soundtrack)
The sooner Christianity dies off, the better. Unfortunately, it may take hundreds of more years…
I had some time on my hands, and something occurred to me.
Christians are always countering the “your God is wrathful/insane/etc” argument with Christ and the New Testament, saying it’s all about love and live and light and so on, and that it represents a softened stance against disobeying God from the OT vengefulness and arbitrary rules.
But all the scripture that anti-gay religious activists and leaders quote against same-sex love is from the Old Testament.
I see a conflict. If the NT supplants the OT as far as how you should treat your fellow man, and how you relate to God and what He expects of you, shouldn’t that include all of the OT prohibitions? All that temporal and social stuff about not eating pigs and not wearing blended fabrics and keeping male and female garments visibly separate, and so on has been handwaved or ignored outright, but from the same source, people vehemently hold on to the part that justifies their bigotry toward something they don’t understand.
Religion is not a buffet. You can have a personal spirituality and believe what you want. but organized religion has official stances on everything, and those stances are supposed to be based on some kind of holy commandments/teachings passed down through time. I don’t understand how that allows you to pick and choose the parts you enforce, or to just ignore the inconvenient parts. it’s not a reinterpretation of the word. It’s outright selective reading.
This is why I don’t practice Christianity anymore. I refuse to follow a God that created me as a homosexual and condemned me for it. I don’t see any point in cherry-picking a LGBT friendly church that glosses over that part, because I don’t know from God Himself whether that’s actually okay. it certainly isn’t the version I was taught. I’d hate to spend all my life obedient to Christian tenets except for that one thing, and getting sent to Hell anyway because I still accepted my homosexuality and “practiced it” instead of wandering the earth alone like I was apparently supposed to do.
I don’t have any more personal interest in making light of this lightning strike anymore than I participated in the “Draw Mohammed” drama. I don’t think much of religion, but I don’t go out of my way to mock it. It just backs diehards into a corner and they come out swinging, and you’ll never change minds that way. As long as religion leaves me alone, I will leave it alone. I deal with religious people who don’t try to force their beliefs on me, and I don’t force my disbelief on them, and we get along. If religious people come along who cross that line, I give them a wide berth.
Funny, it sounds like the Golden Rule or something. A Christian tenet (although not exclusive to it).
On another note, I don’t get stuff like “GOD HATES FAGS”. According to the NT, you can’t cast stones like that unless you’re Jesus 2.0, and you’re not. Who are you to say who God loves and who God hates? He told you to love the sinner and lead by example and teach them to change, not revile and demean them. So people who do that are doing it wrong, just like Muslims who try to blow themselves up to murder people aren’t following Allah. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity share a common origin in the Middle East, and seem make up the majority of religious people in the world. That common center doesn’t teach violence as a means to solve problems, or to hate your fellow man enough to take his life over ideals.
Similarly, anyone who gaybashes and cites religion as his guideline, has missed the point.
If God is real, then He made all of us, and he made us who and what we are. It’s other humans who make being who we are difficult. If we were talking about a genetic defect or about disability, this level of prejudice and bigotry wouldn’t be permitted, although that hasn’t always been the case.
I feel that if religious people checked their premises and followed the truth of their religion for themselves instead of using it to justify their own prejudices and beliefs and inciting mobs of others to do the same, the world would be a better place.
It’s not religion itself that is a plague upon humanity; it’s humans using it as am excuse to wrong one another. Religion just makes it easy and guilt-free.
*is on a roll, now*
And here’s another thing. Someone said about that religion shouldn’t be taken literally, but is intended as an interpretation of existence and a guideline for living our lives in harmony.
But that would allow for people to actively question the details of the faith and develop their own interpretation of it. It would allow them to accept homosexuality as long as if fit within the more important rules and responsibilities. It would allow them to accept modern science and its teachings and developments instead of arguing against it with some literal, completely contradictory origin from the book and trying to teach that in schools as truth, supplanting the things we humans have learned for ourselves with the minds He supposedly gave us. Why would He not allow us to use that same rationality toward his teachings to find our own path, and not follow blindly, suspending our critical thinking in this one area and letting it range free in every other aspect of life?
So much about religion is contradictory and counter-intuitive and unnatural. I don’t see anything inherently good about it.
It isn’t true that ONLY religion can impart positive behaviors and mindsets to children. There are atheist alternatives to Sunday School where they educate and focus on ethics and social harmony, just like church does with harmony and morals, only without the religion.
It seems to me that religion evolved out of both the need to explain a complex world we still don’t understand, and to create good people to cooperate within society so we don’t tear ourselves apart in self-interest and poor judgment and lack of empathy. But religion doesn’t train people to work past those issues as much as it simply holds you over the pit of hell and demands that you change your ways.
That is why it is so easy to lapse. It’s like a crash diet for the soul. By Monday you’re back at McDonalds if you didn’t stop on the way home.
Frankly, I’d prefer the ethics and social awareness training to moral brainwashing and manipulation.
I’m not saying all churches/denominations/faiths use negative tactics, but it’s what I have seen and am familiar with, and it seems to be the norm.
Just remember what Jesus has to say about homosexuality: ” ”
That’s right, nothing at all. Apparently, it was just that important. And let’s look at the Ten Commandments: Let’s see, stuff about the Sabbath, not taking the Lord’s name in vain, murder, adultery, theft, respecting your parents, covetousness…hmmm, nothing about homosexuality. You have to get to the fine print of Leviticus, where it’s lumped in with the crimes of eating pork and shellfish, wearing blended fabrics, shaving, getting tattoos, and having sex with a woman during her period. Talk about Christians picking what they want to believe!
I know my post did sound snarky (and frankly is on one level) but my central question is actually quite apt. If indeed our universe is governed by a deity and there are no random events, then this monument being struck down must have significance…right?
I’m positive that there was at least one member of that congregation who looked at that smoking wreckage the next day and secretly wondered if they weren’t being Zardoz-d. There had to be that inkling of doubt somewhere that it makes no sense in this theology (outside of punishing the folly of pride or false idols?) for a god to decimate this image dedicated to his honor. This person will keep it quiet, and they still show up, and probably even help rebuild, but they can’t deny they felt that sliver of skepticism that maybe it’s all just an elaborate fantasy perpetrated by the men behind the curtain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dSeZ9JvSgY
indeed